shapechange vs true polymorph shapechange vs true polymorph

by Nylo Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:47 pm, Post So a brass dragon cannot change shape into a lich. As a kill spell, this is incredible functionality, although we run into suddenly needing to know things like how many hitpoints a 5ft cube of rock has because, once again, reducing the block to 0 hitpoints will end the spell. User without create permission can create a custom object from Managed package using Custom Rest API, Extracting arguments from a list of function calls. The answer is in the Polymorph spell's description. #DnD Jeremy Crawford Is there a generic term for these trajectories? This spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points. Which are the best True Polymorph forms to cheese this spell? If so, to what effect? We also wont cover Unearthed Arcana content because its not finalized, and we cant guarantee that it will be available to you in your games. Allies may need to use Animal Handling to direct the target (they are a best now, after all). Just because your character knows the hand wiggles and latin necessary for casting Wish does not mean that your assumed form has the wellspring of power within to be able to make it happen, any more than if you taught the components to a random farmer. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit The targets gear melds into the new form. And you are allowed more than one use of this per day. There's still the concern about making this too overpowered, though. Remember from way up at the beginning that you cant transform the target into a magical object, so no you cant turn someone into a Sphere of Annihilation. By what metric are we going to judge that? dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your The "or dies" can be applied to all creatures that are not a PC; those creatures usually die when dropped to 0 HP. In discussing this with Tyler, his answer was to lean heavily on the word kind. To him, kind meant species as defined by taxonomical classification, so I could choose to make you a human or a pit fiend, but not the Diviner stat block from Volos. I don't mind piping in that tabletop and a mud are different in the respect that tabletop ends when the dm is no longer present but a mud runs with an automated design at all hours. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. (Later printings state instead that "The spell has no effect on a shapechanger".) Being hungry, and animal stuff, I dont know. The spell effect changes a creature into a non-creature substance: dust. You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait. The creatures statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form. Some will argue that this would move the "balance" in the direction of "unbalanced" or "too powerful." #DnD A lich is an undead, not a humanoid or beast. It only takes a minute to sign up. The creature cant be a construct or an undead, and you must have seen the sort of creature at least once. Does it mean you can make up creatures from whole cloth and, as long as the calculated CR is less than that of your target, you can turn someone into a weredracopyre lich? You can effectively put away your character sheet and replace it with the stat block out of the Monster Manual. 2) You retain the benefits of any items or gear you're wearing when you transform - not so with TP. Fortunately, Crawford specified that you cant. The tweet favors the "specific" of polymorph/Wild Shape/Shapechange/True Polymorph, rather than the specific of disintegrate, requiring the exhaustion of both HP pools before being turned to dust by that spell. What about mundane illusions while awake? "Legendary Resistance (3/Day). In contrast, the intent (RAI) is that a druid isnt considered to be Thus reaching 0 HP will cause you to revert as will death. Additionally, with both of these spells, Legendary Resistance is a perfectly valid tool you gain access to. your normal form. Given that the spell costs an action, you may not even get to take a single turn with your new form and accomplish nothing more than burning a level 9 spell slot. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). January 6, 2022 Zoltar. Keep in mind that the lowest level you will be able to cast Polymorph is level 7, so you generally wont look for combat forms below CR 7. Otherwise, the target likely attacks the nearest enemy in combat. Is there any known 80-bit collision attack? So I should ask my DM. Worth noting though is that if you concentrate on it for the whole hour the spell becomes permanent until dispelled. This means that its not actually permanent and would cease in, for example, an Antimagic Field (temporarily), or if successfully targeted by a Dispel Magic. It can cripple enemies, turn the caster or an ally into a ferocious beast, or provide you with utility options which are difficult to replicate without relying on numerous other spells at once. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Does the druid simply leave beast form? You are using an out of date browser. This is just not included for no particular reason, so if you want to turn a boulder into diamonds it needs to go through the intermediate step of being a Brontosaurus as described above. This spell combines very well with the War Caster feat as it gives an advantage on the save. A proper Wizard needs no friends. Maybe I can get the dev to reply to that, or not. Because it turns out that hitting 0 hp as your new form will always end the spell on you, even if its been 1000 years of living as a dragon. True ploymorph an ally into a ghost then true polymorph another ally into a gold shadow dragon. 1.0, How to break the game with Animal Messenger (starting at level 3), AMFES: Summer 2, Now with Digital Tokens Included, 2020 Holiday Ornament and Black Friday Sale, If this is your first visit, be sure to At level 20, the best you can hope for is an Ancient White or Brass Dragon as the rest have a challenge rating of 21+ and that gets into "epic levels" (assuming any DMs use that kind of 21+ progression). Never noticed that, always looked at the spell and not the trait. At the level that this spell would come available, the damage exchanged in combat and the number of hits the new form would take would end the spell in a round or less. The doppelganger can use its action to polymorph into a Small or Medium, What source is that? My bad on this one, I set the wizard testing polymorph to the wrong skill level. I recently discovered that many people share my profound enthusiasm for turning things into other things which, combined with fantasizing about high level spells as one often does, led me to make a guide where I discussed some of the fantastic utility available using True Polymorph and Shapechange. It only takes a minute to sign up. You could also True Polymorph someone else, and they would be free to polymorph into something else. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. The entire basis of the Disintegrate spell is to turn something to ash, and there doesn't seem to be anything in the polymorph spell that would counter that or stop the disintegration. Druids have the Wild Shape feature, and although numerous textual references refer to this ability, at no point (that I can find) are they specifically called "shapechangers". Shapechange lets you keep changing into something else for a fresh set of legendary resistances and 1 or 3/day innate casting spells. The shapechange spell says you retain your class features and can use them if your new form is physically capable of doing so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a polymorphed creature is never a "Huge or larger. You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad, Started work on a 5E OGL SRD game that might get released on Drivethrurpg.com, http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/11/rue-polymorph/, The Fighter (redesigned with more than swinging a weapon in mind, uses inspiration dice), The Thug (Hybrid Barbarian/Rogue) ver. A few last thoughts. That's over a day of straight shapechange. well that depends .. there are 2 cr 30 monsters tarrasque avarage on attacks is 24 28 32 so dc 12 14 16 all almost guaranteed pass with the stat you mentiond. Shapechange only turns you into another creature. As long as the excess damage doesnt reduce the creatures normal form to 0 hit points, it isnt knocked unconscious. 3) You can use an action to change forms during your Shapechange. Keep in mind that the state of the meta periodically changes as new source materials are released, and the article will be updated accordingly as time allows. This site works best with JavaScript enabled. All of that is part of the pile of dust. (Taken from the Disintegrate spell) If a dragon under my control uses Change Shape to turn into an Evoker, can I choose the Evoker's race, and benefit from its racial traits? Mearles has stated time and time again his responses is how *he* would rule it. Next paragraph: The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it cant speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions.. Has the cause of a rocket failure ever been mis-identified, such that another launch failed due to the same problem? That one gets a solid probably from me but is still strange to think about. There are several things that posters in this thread don't seem to realize about True Polymorph: that would likely become a DM discretion thing. As long as the excess damage doesnt reduce the creatures normal form to 0 hit points, it isnt knocked unconscious. you arent knocked unconscious. The advice offered below is based on the current State of the Character Optimization Meta as of when the article was last updated. Does it use its culture? Skill levels go up to 25, after all. Can I use an 11 watt LED bulb in a lamp rated for 8.6 watts maximum? If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated. Does a password policy with a restriction of repeated characters increase security? Shapechanging, Available For: Immediate vagueness problems. It depends on how you look at it. It says monsters can take class levels in the DMG. Speaking of gold, this is an even better way of breaking economies than Wish, which is impressive. If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature. Especially in regards to Polymorph and Shapechange and Secret Doors. Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You turn back into a lvl 17+ Wizard. ), its going to behave differently. All of the issue for those three spells leave the Wild Shape Druid class skill/ability open to "what level is that cast at?" If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled. The new form can be of any creature with a challenge rating equal to your level or lower. The new form can be of any creature with a challenge rating equal to your level or lower. The highest CR beasts currently published. If you're concentrating on one spell, and you cast another concentration spell, when exactly does the first spell end? This is to represent that youre turning into a normal creature of that type, not one with additional training. There is some tension between this spell's result at 0 HP and the other shape changing methods. Is there anything that prevents this from working? What is the symbol (which looks similar to an equals sign) called? You can only speak if the creature can normally speak. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Make it a part of your character post campaign that they're going to experiment and make a spell that permanently changes their form to a dragon or something. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. This inherits all of the issues with any kind of creature from the first section but Im not going to list them again. The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. #3 Feb 8, 2022 EurobeatJester View User Profile View Posts ok, yep, so the definitions of Truesight and True Seeing are different. Shapechange IMO is more useful in a combat scenario. Deciding what actions the new creature takes and how it moves isnt called out as requiring any kind of action on your part, or even interaction with the creature. It seems odd that wild shape is replaced by shapechange as a druid ability, when shapechange is a powered up version of polymorph for druids and wizards according to D20. As we all know, Hex is a really useful spell. Shapechange no longer becomes "change shape each round" but rather "keep your mind and change into a new shape". @DavidCoffron Cool, that clears that up! @JeremyECrawford What happens if a wild shaped druid is reduced to 0 by disintegrate? Polymorph (both regular and true), Shapechange, and Wildshape all have a consistent rule of reverting to original form when 0 HP are reached, and can be summarized as follows: If you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. The GM determines whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creatures shape and size. I know that True Polymorph is a Concentration spell, so the first True Polymorph would end when they cast the second one, I don't think they lose the spell they're Concentrating on if they lose the Spellcasting feature that gave them the slot in the first place? The Polymorph spell is an extremely versatile and powerful tool. I though it was referring to Huge or larger enemies and objects. * (a drop of mercury, a dollop of gum arabic, and a wisp of smoke). A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile of fine gray dust. What should I follow, if two altimeters show different altitudes? "The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies.". You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. We will not include 3rd-party content, including content from DMs Guild, in handbooks for official content because we cant assume that your game will allow 3rd-party content or homebrew. If an Ancient Metallic Dragon uses Change Shape to turn into a humanoid with Innate Spellcasting, do the uses of X/day spells reset each time? You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. But sometimes you want to break the world in other interesting ways, and True Polymorph is a great way to do so. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it. Well-treated is entirely culture dependent. The warlock casts True Polymorph, turning the bard into an Ancient Brass Dragon (possibly even one that can cast spells). Unlike every other polymorph-type spell or ability, you maintain access to all your class features (including spellcasting). Now, there is a very important distinction in that paragraph. Just because a form you take is capable of casting spells does not mean you can inherently cast any spells that arent part of that stat block. Role-playing Games Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for gamemasters and players of tabletop, paper-and-pencil role-playing games. Perhaps the most important limitation of polymorph is how it affects the targets mind. He can be an epic dragon, but will be able to PPP back into his Clone if he ever dies. The Sage Advice Compendium supports this answer from a RAW perspective, Apparently, RAI is in opposition to my argument, Improving the copy in the close modal and post notices - 2023 edition, New blog post from our CEO Prashanth: Community is the future of AI. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. The Polymorph would not be able to reverse the disintegration spell since it isn't a True Resurrection Spell, or a Wish Spell. Your equipment doesnt change shape or size to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form cant wear must either fall to the ground or merge into your new form. What happens if I choose, for example, a golem with text in its stat block A golem cant think or act for itself? I dont have a good answer. Giving this some more thought is certainly more I'd like to see, along with everyones, The third problem is skill ups. Does your DM need to know or decide by fiat the mean age category of all Brass Dragons out there? I suggest picking a form for disabling enemies by turning enemies into it, a form for scouting, and a general combat form. Shapechange gives more cheesy options, like a Pit Fiend bladesinging, with shield spell mastery. Speaking of, what happens if I turn someone into something with a naturally very short lifespan like a housefly? However, if you revert as a Sort of sucks. The GM has the creatures statistics and resolves all of its actions and movement. Your DM will probably be interested to hear what the dev had to say on this. Already we have more clarity than True Polymorph, although that comes with some frustrating limitations. Ditto for Shapechange. It seems to me that the concentration requirement would make it almost useless. Theres nothing really surprising here, although one thing can be a bit confusing. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren't knocked unconscious. What is Wario dropping at the end of Super Mario Land 2 and why? It seems valid to rule that disintegrate overrides the transitional form because it also destroys all non-magical equipment. The target assumes the hit points of its new form, and when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. by Tarven Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:13 pm, Post Random Powell. Boolean algebra of the lattice of subspaces of a vector space? You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so. For example, if you transformed into a Drow Matron Mother, you would not gain access to her ability to cast spells or her spell list - you'd still have your own spells and spell slots, however. The change shape feature of the Brass dragon says (emphasis mine): The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own. Crawford calls out that, RAI, a depiction of one (like a drawing) would not work, but then goes on to say that using a Crystal Ball on one would. When the spell states that you take the form of "any creature with a challenge rating equal to your level or lower", does this mean the players class level, spell-caster level, or total level from all classes. Switch from a Marilith to a Planetar for that sweet, sweet healing, then into something else if you want to. Does that mean any printed creature? Discussions about the Forgotten Kingdoms Game, Post But you would still be an "average example of the creature". Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed. The targets game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. Once they expend a number of spell slots from its new form, it proceeds to use its new 9th-level spell slot to cast True Polymorph on itself again, turning into a brand new Adult Gold Dragon form, and then using Change Shape to turn into a brand new Archmage form, and then repeats this process to gain an infinite number of spell slots. Does casting Disintegrate on a polymorphed enemy still kill it after the 2018 errata? The differences are entirely for the roleplay description of the monster as it disintegrates, and the size of the ash-pile. Be a Quori, use Mind Seed, turn into a Frost Worm and burrow into the ground. @NautArch That's correct. I somehow have full access to its knowledge for the purpose of making it do things, but I cant use that knowledge for anything else. the druids normal form is reduced to 0 hit points. It doesnt fix what happens when you choose Brass Dragon though. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. This spell seems to me to be a worse true polymorph. It uses this ability to turn into a CR 12 Archmage, which has the Spellcasting feature, allowing it to cast spells using as an 18th level spellcaster, using its intelligence score. Retweet 3:10 PM - 17 Sep 2015. You assume the form of a different creature for the duration. While polymorphed, the targets game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. You could also True Polymorph someone else, and they would be free to polymorph into something else. @BlueMoon93 Thanks, not sure if I can revive it; this is a good example of why it is important to avoid a link without a summary/sample of what's there. This grants you the stat block of said Adult Gold Dragon, including its Change Shape ability, allowing it to assume the form of "a humanoid or beast with a Challenge Rating no higher than its own". Its bad when the DM has to twist and convolute the plot and world to prevent a player from breaking the game. You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait. What, that guy? True Polymorph is best used on your allies and minions as they'll make better use of turning into a beholder or better use of becoming a pit fiend than you will. If a player said they were going to start training to become a wizard again, I'd say "yep, you certainly try to gain wizard powers". You cant use any legendary actions or lair actions of the new form. Shapechange only turns you into another creature. True Polymorph, Dragon Change Shape, and True Sight interaction. Apparently, RAI is in opposition to my other answer. You recover your uses in the span of an in-game day. points you had before you transformed. Justice is not neccesarily honourable, it is a tolerable business, in essence you tolerate honour until it impedes justice, then you do what is right. You can't use any legendary actions or lair actions of the new form. Jeremy Crawford confirmed that you are still yourself. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Per the tweet linked, it appears that both Polymorphed cretaures and Wildshaped Druids would revert, rather than turn to dust, as RAI. The advice offered below is based on the current State of the Character Optimization Meta as of when the article was last updated. (RAW). Has the Melford Hall manuscript poem "Whoso terms love a fire" been attributed to any poetDonne, Roe, or other? If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated. Wild Shape lasts longer and you always have the option to switch out to something else, unlike polymorph. Creature into Creature. Can an object created by True Polymorph be used as a consumable spell component? True Polymorph is permanent. Theres no right answer here. You assume the form of a different creature for the duration. Pit Fiend or a Dragon are the obvious choices. Easily manage polymorph, true polymorph, animals shapes, shapechange, NPC shapechanger, and wild shape all from your character sheet with the click of a button; When activated, a new character sheet is opened automatically with your new shape's features & abilities; The combat tracker updates in real-time with your new form and statistics Symbol- Can you get infinite spells through True Polymorph and Change Shape? One amusing thing you may have noticed that you cant do with True Polymorph is turn objects into other objects. Thus, overpowered. Dragon Breath Weapons are NOT a guarantee to drop this because you forget that you can save for 1/2. The other big difference is that polymorph is one and done while shapechange allows you to continuously change what you've shapechanged into. What about if you change it in ways that dont damage the product though? That target almost certainly cant speak or understand speech unless its also under some other effect like Comprehend Languages. @JeremyECrawford What happens if a wild shaped druid is reduced to 0 by disintegrate? Worst case scenario you just suicide and poof, back to where you started anyways. 2018 errata fixed the RAW to specify this intended behaviour-. Which takes precedence? Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. for druids in D&D. You're also more than welcome to link to my handbook if you want extra information available in the shapechange spell description in yours. Im going to list a few great options for Undead and Constructs here since I cover everything else down in the Shapechange section. You need to look carefully at what you choose, but most high-level things have Innate and not regular so expect to be able to use everything unless you are, for instance, looking at the Diviner stat block. Its certainly more exciting but also more dangerous. A failed save always sucks, but I'd be glad to have this up as a damage sponge if nothing else in that case (because you'd lose the concentration after taking the damage). I see your general point on spell text. 5e doesn't have any hidden rules, and there doesn't seem to be anything about it working that way in the Spellcasting chapter of the PHB - and if it did work that way, wouldn't it break Polymorph spells in general, since they lose their Spellcasting class feature while Polymorphed? @nick012000 You say "I cast fireball" when you begin to cast fireball, not upon completing casting a fireball. Are animated things like Golems and Strangling Rugs creatures since they have stat blocks and therefore fair game, or are they magic items and therefore verboten?